Monday, September 05, 2005

Another More Reasoned View

The following is a reply I felt compelled to construct afer reading a reader's views in a recent edition of the much respected Pacific Coast Business Times, read throughout our Central Coast.

I read in its August 19th edition, a readers reply, entitled: … “A Reader’s view of Federal Tax Cuts” … with bemused confounded curiosity.

Other than as another Pollyanna manifesto of destructive partisanship, I could find no other way of understanding such incongruous incredulity.

The point of it appearing to be, once again, the ill conceived retro ratcheting up of the now vacuous and most wearisome endless partisan blame game, so often insipidly offered up as nurturing pablum for the masses.

Followed then, by the usual inexplicable old baseless justifications of making that old saw of: soak the rich - again, ever inanely more palatable to that very same and otherwise very discriminating and savvy audience, who are the very ones burdened with paying those taxes.

How tired are we of seeing this, and hearing this? Few discriminating citizens, any longer are fooled, by such foolhardy ill advised strident partisan commentary.

The old maxim, credited to the late Louisiana Senator Russell Long so many years ago, that so many Americans seem still to favor when considering taxation, particularly their own, seems a fitting summary reply to such innocuous commentary.
"Don't tax you, don't tax me. Tax that fellow behind the tree."

If those rich trees tank, the governments’ coffers dry up as well. People, who don’t like to be taxed (many, if not most of us.) have figured out that the more undesirable alternative to taxing the rich, is to tax everybody else, i.e. themselves.

To be clear, there is a complete absence of any credible evidence or research to back up laying out a damning scenario where tax breaks to the “rich”, are not justified, and resultantly economically productive.

Moreover … If to, how much to, and how to … tax the “rich” also manifestly depends on how they will respond to attempts to being taxed further. All things being equal, it seems prudent to me to limit the extent to which any taxpayer may be induced to pursue less socially productive pursuits, in order to avoid those very taxes, upon which we all so depend.

If half or more of all American families pay little or no income taxes, who does pay income taxes? Why the "rich," of course. Nationally, they pay on average about 96% of the total taxes levied. Here in California, that lopsided statistic is not much better.

I would dare say, that very few of us would consider ourselves “rich”, by any stretch. Hard working, Yes. … Rich, No.

Consequently, if I hear that intentionally misdirecting and guilt damning term of “rich” applied to we over burdened taxpayers again, in order to obscure and distort the truths of our tax system, in some absurd attempt to falsely redistribute hard earned dollars from very deserving citizens, I may just hyperventilate, and pass out. A result, even if minuscule, can only serve to yet further reduce the tax coffers.

Most, are not “rich”, but rather small business owners, who by their own fortitude, sweat and perseverance put the larger majority of people to work, statewide and nationally, who then also pay taxes.

All the Bush legislation did was to provide obvious productive economic tax incentives from historically and well hewn proven economic principles, in order to provide: real tax breaks for people, who actually pay Federal and State income taxes, and also, then provided an additional further tax break for people, who do not pay income taxes.

Did it work, Yes. Is it perfect? No, but it beats mind boggling bashing and whining.

Is it correct then to tie California’s abysmal record on business and economic incentives and growth to the Federal government, or Bush in particular? No.

That is a stretch of illogical disconnect, that only a truly committed Bush Basher could attempt to make. And like swimming the Bering Sea in a Speedo, it doesn’t work.

So, please … “Don’t Keep Getting Stuck on Stupid.”

Having said all that, is there a need for practical changes in our debilitating progressive Federal and State tax codes (supplanted by preferred rationale protocols of economic incentives and applied pragmatic earned distribution); economic fairness; moral dictums, and effective, consistent operationally efficient management?

A system where we as citizens can elect, determine, and not unimportantly account for: who gets what, why, and where our tax dollars go?

ABSOLUTELY, without any question!

Is it realistically going to happen? Sadly, absolutely no … in the near term, at least. Certainly not tomorrow. But that doesn’t mean we can not, nor should not, push for such much needed change. Hope springs eternal.

After all without someone taking the reins to truly bring leadership and common sense to the business and economic environment here in California, we will soon become yet another third world nation, but one with a current estimated annual output of about $1.3 trillion. Sadly, quite an economic potential, to be so disabled, and threatened by poor legislative management.

The problem is not, nor ever has been, any desperate need for increasing income brought in by over burdensome taxes, nor how to squeeze more out of some partisan fallacy, of distorted Nimbyism.

But, rather, it is how to stop our elected representatives (local, state, and/or federal) from spending money they don’t have, on schemes for which they have no citizen mandate, nor personal responsibility for, seemingly beyond their egos, presumptuous legacies, and re-election schemes.

In the meantime, we citizens and taxpayers can only be actively vigilante to be sure, that we as a Nation and as a State, do not tie our horses solely to the vagaries of the rich, as was done here in California, and its recent Ponzi schemes of dot com wealth, nor then to contrastively bite the very hands that feed us.

We must also not succumb to mindless Bush bashing schemes of dalliers and dilettantes, no less unproductive than old Mr. Ponzi’s shell games. Games of personal convenience, which serve only to otherwise distract us from more practical solutions of inducing our now oft felt tyrannical tax system (as it distressfully continues to be irresponsibly propelled by unrestrained government spending), to become more responsive to we citizens, and our most necessary economic incentives. Our wallets, our hearts and our lives.

We must have an economic engine which unhesitantly employs productive economically symbiotic tax codes; constrained and responsibly reduced regulatory environments; and mandated unqualified rules of restrained spending, in order to maintain and sustain a well forged and economically independent and secure Nation, and State.

14 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

incongruous incredulity

What the heck is that?. I knew I should have memorized the 10 words (you'll never use) list that I think Readers Digest use to put out- maybe they still do.

I gotta tell you it would take me an hour to look up all the words you've used in your write-up. Obviously you are showing your intellectual supremacy. And thusly your argument must be correct.

Unfortunately you are horribly wrong in your analysis.

"To be clear, there is a complete absence of any credible evidence or research to back up laying out a damning scenario where tax breaks to the “rich”, are not justified, and resultantly economically productive."

Show me the evidence that raising marginal tax rates on the top earners reduces economic productivity. I think at one time the top marginal tax rate at the Federal level was 70%.


"All things being equal, it seems prudent to me to limit the extent to which any taxpayer may be induced to pursue less socially productive pursuits, in order to avoid those very taxes, upon which we all so depend."--(Does this mean you support eliminating tax breaks that only the wealthy utilize?. Didn't think so)

That sounds plausible but in the real world very few people, especially the super rich, consider the marginal tax implications of working an extra hour. Do you think that Larry Ellison, Oracle, takes into consideration tax implications of making another $100 Million. This has to do with the substitution effect and indifference curves.


Do you think there is a fiscal drag caused by the current marginal tax rates?

"Having said all that, is there a need for practical changes in our debilitating progressive Federal and State tax codes"

Debilitating in what way?.

"All the Bush legislation did was to provide obvious productive economic tax incentives from historically and well hewn proven economic principles, in order to provide: real tax breaks for people, who actually pay Federal and State income taxes,..."

What are you talking about?. What?-- well hewn proven economic principles. Oh, I should point out that I have B.S in Economics so don't try to BS me.( That was pretty funny.) I don't want to hear about the Laffer curve or supply side economics. Supply side economics only is applicable to perfectly competitive industries.

"Consequently, if I hear that intentionally misdirecting and guilt damning term of “rich” applied to we over burdened taxpayers again, in order to obscure and distort the truths of our tax system, in some absurd attempt to falsely redistribute hard earned dollars from very deserving citizens"

Whaaaatttt????. I'm not even sure what that means. The whole concept regarding marginal tax rates is a little bit more complex than just the concept of the ability to pay. It has to do with the concept of wealth effects.

Why don't you just come out and say you want to limit government by choking off the money. That would be much more honest. Brett

10:34 PM  
Blogger don regan said...

THANK YOU GARY

don
:)

7:47 PM  
Blogger don regan said...

Gary Ray said...

Again, Gary ... THANK YOU!

I have copied your comment and modified my earlier post re: Katrina Victims, posted:
Tuesday, August 30, 2005

FOR THE VICTIMS OF KATRINA, PLEASE JOIN ME IN PRAYER & ACTION ...

I too hope it helps.

don
:)

8:14 PM  
Blogger don regan said...

Anonymous said...

Well, First and foremost, as I think I have mentioned before in our previous communications, your replies do not always need to be so involved in your own personal anger, as seemingly a method of you justifying your answers.

I personlly get so tired of that attack tone, it weakens your already weak arguments, and insights.

Just state your thinking. It is so much nicer, to have a nicer tone, so that it can then be discussed and perhaps, then both of us without your accompanying environment of angst, could perhaps be more open to not only learning from one another, but teaching others, as well.

Second ... Some of your questions are good. So let me tell you what I think in reply.

Q: “Show me the evidence that raising marginal tax rates on the top earners reduces economic productivity. I think at one time the top marginal tax rate at the Federal level was 70%.”

ANSWER:

A)One never ever, ever wants to increase any tax, never mind marginal tax rates. If indeed you are a BS in economics, then from your comments, sounds like that might have been late 80’s or 90’s?

B)Seems that in the interim many have figured out that that cutting marginal tax rates encourages supply.

C)Therefore, the challenge is not mine, the challenge is yours to prove what you say. My answer, to you is that seemingly … Only the ill advised could believe that increasing any tax, never mind “Marginal Tax Rates”, leads to anything but lower productivity.

Q: "Do you think there is a fiscal drag caused by the current marginal tax rates?"

ANSWER: Yes … Even 25%, never mind above, is no sliver lining, nor easily achieved.

IN REGARD TO YOUR OTHER OBSERVATIONS, I DON’T KNOW EVEN WHERE TO BEGIN, AS I THINK THEY ARE SUSPISCIOUSLY OBSCURE ON THEIR FACE, AND SIMPLY ARGUMENTATIVE, IN TONE AND CONTENT.

BUT, IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY, THEN COME BACK WITH YOUR SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPORVEMENTS, RATHER THAN JUST RANDOM, UNFOUNDED ATTACKS. IN THE PAST YOU HAVE EITHER BEEN UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO DO SO.

don

8:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you're going to talk silliness, then I'm going to make you work for it. Honestly, I think your article is bunch of crap and maybe it's never been put to you so bluntly- learn to live with it. By the way I'm not angry.

Your whole article was so verbose as to be almost meaningless. Why don't you go back and re-write your article so it understandable. I've always believed if you cannot explain something to the common person in simple language you probably don't really know what you are talking about or bs'ing.

Yes there have been differening "schools" of economics. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the differing views of economists up and through modern economic theory. Cal Poly School of Economics Class of 1989.

There is fiscal drag in the lower income brackets but the income brackets I think you're directing your analysis toward isn't there.

People who make gobs of money don't do it for the money. Their motivation is much more complex. For some it's simple ego but for most it is for personal satisfaction of completing the task.

What do you consider "wealthy"?, in annual income. I'd just kinda like to know.

[A)One never ever, ever wants to increase any tax, never mind marginal tax rates.]

Why?. Lower productivity- in what way. Substitute leisure for work.

[B)Seems that in the interim many have figured out that that cutting marginal tax rates encourages supply.]

Many. As in who?. Arthur Laffer and a bunch of politicians- specifically Ronald Reagan.

(Why do I have this notion you believe Ronald Reagan was the greatest President ever.)

You make a statement back it up.

I don't really like to write so I'm not going to go on and on here, but I'll tell you I'm not like some reporter who is going to take every word a "politician" says at face value.

[IN REGARD TO YOUR OTHER OBSERVATIONS, I DON’T KNOW EVEN WHERE TO BEGIN, AS I THINK THEY ARE SUSPISCIOUSLY OBSCURE ON THEIR FACE, AND SIMPLY ARGUMENTATIVE, IN TONE AND CONTENT.]

Begin answering the questions I posed, it's a simple as that. Obscure, I don't think my questions were obscure. Yes, they're argumentative. They're suppose to be. Brett

PS- welcome to the world of blogging, it's not so safe when someone actually responds.

12:28 AM  
Blogger don regan said...

Leggs Ortiz said...

How very nice Dawn ...

Thank you.

I will as time permits, and soon, check out your suggested references.

And reply.

Perhaps you could, in the meantime,send your e-address to "Newstand Greg", and he would then forward it to me, such that we can communicate personally.

"centralcoastnewsmission at gmail.com."

I feel very privileged to receive your personal reply.

Thank You ...
don

8:54 AM  
Blogger don regan said...

Dawn ... I am hoping I hear from you via Newstand Greg.

don
:)

7:44 PM  
Blogger don regan said...

Well Anonymous …

Well, you never cease to crack me up. (Is it Brett, or anonymous?) With your permission, as we’ve gone round before, I will address you as Brett, whether that is actually your name, or another aka. It seems more personal, perhaps the Brett persona has less fury, and more reason?

First, Brett, many Bloggers don’t even reply to their fellow bloggers directly. I still chose too, as I still learn from the exercise, and while I still have the time to reply, I enjoy the interactions, and live in hope, that people will reply rationally. You would be the exception, but nonetheless an interesting one.

But, while you deny your anger, it is still rather apparent, and quite unnecessary with me, I assure you. Not to mention it gets way in the way.

I also want to thank you for recognizing that it requires thinking to understand the article. It was/is intended that way. I enjoy words, and complex expression, in much of my personal writings, and it is no different here. Not always, but I don’t avoid it either, I rather enjoy it, at times.

It was not meant to be simple, nor is it an obvious simple topic. Also, as I am not here as your or anyone’s teacher, I am of no inclination to make it pedagogically easier for the reader, or particularly you.

It is your thoughts, your solutions, your observations, not your critique of my writing, or attacks on my thinking, that is of any interst to anyone. Least of all me.

I assume when I put words to paper, that it is a forgone conclusion, that some will not agree, and that some may agree. It is from the presence of both, that I hope to find knowledge and material communication between people, without hostility seeping – dripping wearily through every expressed phoneme.

I appreciate you feel a need, and albeit an actual stated entitlement to do so. Obviously it brings you intestinal joy. I am happy for you, but it is not the intent of the article, or the dialectic, and certainly not the intent of the Blog. Rather the intent is merely to get you and others to voice your thoughts, and offer our own INSIGHTS AND SOLUTIONS.

It is boring when the only thought is that of your babbling criticism, the mark of an unremarkable mind, in most instances.

If you want to be a pissant and critic, go to Hollywood, and work for a magazine, as an editor.

Thank you for acknowledging, albeit begrudgingly, that you indeed did graduate in those heady economic philosophic times of the late 80’s and nineties. It pleases me to know, I was correct, and also gives me a hint as to the age and implied views of the reader. Thank you.

As to the rest of your repartee, I can only say it is to way to overwhelming, and veritably makes my head hurt, as your comments are all over the board, and with absolutely no focus on any one thing, and asks not one cogent non-insulting question.

And more importantly, you did not, as I asked, state one, nor even come close to offering one or any constructive solution for anything.

Your critical rants, are interesting, and at times entertaining, but I simply will not answer them point by ambiguous pointless point. I don’t have the mental energy, nor interst, nor time to do so, for you. As I said, before, and again here, I am not your teacher, and with your stated background one would think you would have more to say, than critical blah, blah, blah, blah, blah non sequiturs .

So, in future comments, I will not reply if I sense, any anger, or disassociated thinking, aimed at no more than your obvious persistent blustering. I would like you to offer and stay on one cogent informative non critical theme, and with a solution that you could offer. Preferably again, one cogent question at a time.

And lastly, I would ask that you read the article again, because I just can’t figure out, other than you obviously liking to hear yourself talk, what the heck your point is.

So, I hope you understand. Nothing personal, just keep it simple, please, and without criticism and anger, getting in the way of your stated solutions. Lets hear what you think, not how badly you think others think.

Lets see what you really gotta say, so far it has been nothing of substance.

If you can’t do that Brett, then please don’t waste my and the readers, time.

Thank You and Good Luck …
Don

8:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don, what is your argument plain and simple?-- I think it is that the wealthy (you used "rich") are taxed too much and that lowing their taxes would increase the general welfare of society- actually you didn't say that, you said increase economic productivity. I understand there is a big difference between the two. I shouldn't put words in your mouth.

I don't know what your analyis is based on except some vague reference to "many (ducks, cows, conservatives?) have figured out that that cutting marginal tax rates encourages supply." Is that your analysis?. If it's not and you're keeping it (analysis) a secret it's ok to let others know.

So how does lowing the marginal tax rates on the
"rich" increase supply?. I'd like to hear your answer.

I haven't attacked you personally, I've attacked your ideas. If you take that personally that's your problem.

I think your writing style makes it nearly impossible to try and understand what you're saying. If you don't care that readers understand what your point is, then who are writing for?.

Obvioulsy you don't take criticism well. You certainly don't have a problem with getting down in the mud and slinging away. I guess that's easier then making an attempt at answering any questions I've posed. If you don't understand the questions I'll be more than happy to elaborate.

But I am going to defend myself from your personal attacks- you've learned well from Karl Rove and his ilk.

I think I know what my first name is-- yep, just looked at it on my drivers license, it's Brett. What difference would it make anyway?. Are you suggesting that I'm lying and therefore anyone who would lie about their name on a blog site should be disregarded. I told you before on a different subject I didn't write the responses that were not "signed". If you're not signed up then the header says anonymous- it's not some nefarious plot.

[It is your thoughts, your solutions, your observations, not your critique of my writing, or attacks on my thinking, that is of any interst to anyone. Least of all me.]

I already commented on your writing style a bit. I find it awkward and not directed at what I would consider the typical reader of this blog site, but to each his own.

Let's see though, aren't your thoughts, solutions, and your observations all part of your thinking. How do you separate them?. So how does one attack (in the argumentative sense) your solutions and your observations without attacking your thinking on that particular issue?. So you think you know what the readers of this blog are interested in. Maybe they actually want to know where your thinking is wrong and why.

[It is boring when the only thought is that of your babbling criticism, the mark of an unremarkable mind, in most instances.]

Hey!. I think you're dis'n me. I'll just make myself feel better and conclude I must be an exception in this instance. Maybe you should come up with a different thought because I'll disagree with what you admit to as your only thought you could come up with.

[Thank you for acknowledging, albeit begrudgingly, that you indeed did graduate in those heady economic philosophic times of the late 80’s and nineties. It pleases me to know, I was correct, and also gives me a hint as to the age and implied views of the reader. Thank you.]

Begrudgingly-- you just made that up. Amazing. I wrote I had a BS in Economics and you speculated (correctly- nice to know I gave you some joy in life) that it was in the late 80's early 90's. So I responded with the year. I didn't think it was all that important to begin with. I sense a bit of sarcasim in your tone about heady economic philosophic times. Oh, I'm 41 years old. If that matters to you.

[Your critical rants, are interesting, and at times entertaining, but I simply will not answer them point by ambiguous pointless point.]

I don't think I've asked any "ambiguous" questions. They've been pretty straight to the point.

I'm still waiting for your definition of "rich". It's hard to start a debate if there isn't a sense of one's definitions.

[As to the rest of your repartee, I can only say it is to way to overwhelming, and veritably makes my head hurt, as your comments are all over the board, and with absolutely no focus on any one thing, and asks not one cogent non-insulting question.]

Thinking is hard work, too bad it makes your head hurt. Welcome to Economics. I think my focus has been to try and understand why you believe that lowering tax rates on the "rich" will be economically productive and I'm assuming increase the general welfare of the Nation.

Maybe you don't care about the general welfare of the Nation and that is why you don't understand what I'm getting at. Maybe you believe it is perfectly fine to have all the wealth concentrated in the hand of a very few.

Could it also be plausable that lowering taxes on "middle income" tax payers would stimulate demand and thus increase the supply of goods and services as capital flows to those industries that are experiencing excess returns.

Is it your hypothesis that middle income tax payers are unable to stimulate demand?. That only the "rich" are capable of this feat?.

[So, I hope you understand. Nothing personal, just keep it simple, please, and without criticism and anger, getting in the way of your stated solutions. Lets hear what you think, not how badly you think others think.]

So you slam the crap out me and then tell me not to take it personally. Nice!.

Here's a response to your article I linked on another message board.

"Aside from his tendency for alliteration, his rhetoric is impressive at moments, his views predictable and I'm sure Freedom would simply drool on his keyboard over his wordplay - just the sort of high flying rhetoric that he so loves."

11:25 PM  
Blogger don regan said...

Sorry Brett, won't play your game.

My points are clear.

As I said, OFFER YOUR OWN SOLUTIONS, answer your own argumentative and rhetorical questions, and I will be happy to comment further, from my perspective.

don

7:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I tried to play by your rules and be nice but your going to stomp off with your ball anyway. I can tell you're a sensitive guy and don't deal with criticism well. But I really am starting to believe you don't know what the hell you are talking about, got caught with you pants down and don't have clue as how to answer any questions I've posed.

Or, maybe you've realized that you don't want to leave any "hard" evidence for the public to critique when you run for public office again. I did notice at your campaign website you didn't use any of the $5 words.

Oh, you can go pound sand with that pissant comment. I would have told you that in my previous post but I wanted to hear what you had to say. You know- fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Your points are as clear as mud and you're never going to explain them so there's no reason to try and continue this discussion. Brett- yeah that's my real name

7:45 AM  
Blogger don regan said...

THANK YOU SPECTATOR!!!

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHTFUL WORDS.

ALL I WAS ASKING FOR WAS SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT HE KEEPS GIVING, WHICH IS NOTHING BUT RHETORICAL BATING WORDS, WITHOUT SUBSTANCE.

ONE CAN ONLY DO THAT FOR SO LONG, AND ASK FOR SUBSTANCE, AND WHEN IT IS NOT FORTHCOMING, THEN ONE DOES NEED TO MOVE ON.

SO, I DO APPRECIATE THAT SOME ONE ELSE, CAN ALSO SEE THINGS FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

don
:)

10:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is what the real world thinks of your drivel.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22997

2:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

let me qualify that with bombastic and euphuistic drivel

2:25 PM  

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